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(Speaker Continuing)
[Ms Maria McLoughlin:] The details of how that should be conducted are provided for within the guidelines. It includes "ongoing contract management" to ensure that the full benefit is derived from the specific requirements within the contract. Essentially, the framework we put in place is not simply to make a decision at the onset of a project but to ensure during its lifetime that it will also be subject to that type of review.
Deputy Paschal Donohoe:   Does the Department play a role in that phase?
Ms Maria McLoughlin: The role of our Department is to put the structures in place and then to-----
Deputy Paschal Donohoe: I appreciate that the Department cannot micro-manage what is going on in every agency, but does it know if that is happening? Does it check if the work is being done?
Ms Maria McLoughlin: It would be fair to say that public-private partnerships, are relatively new in this country, and my colleague may add a further comment on this. The ongoing review and post-project initiating management of them is something we are developing and of which we are getting more experience. The NDFA, the experts who advise Departments on projects, has begun to do more of that in terms of looking back on the projects that have begun. As the Deputy said, the UK has 770 PPPs compared to-----
Deputy Paschal Donohoe: And they come in on time as well.
Ms Maria McLoughlin: We are also part of the European network of PPPs and we are involved with our colleagues in refining and developing our expertise in this area. It is something of which we are conscious and have provided for within the guidelines. Essentially, implementation of the guidelines and what is contained in them is really a matter for the sanctioning authorities.
Deputy Paschal Donohoe: I will follow that up with the people at next week's committee hearing because it is an important area.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy: I would add the point that I am not aware of any review having been carried out of a PPP; I could be wrong about that but I have not seen one. A point we have been making since we first looked at PPPs is that it is very important to carry out that exercise. As to the timing of it, the first one we looked at was the pilot project on schools in 2003 and the expectation was that after a period of operation of approximately five years there would be a look-back at the value that had been achieved, but I am not aware that has been done. I said in my opening remarks that I will return to these points for next year week's meeting. There is a value to be gained from having a look-back on a project when it becomes operational. There are potential lessons to be learned at that point around what is in the design of the capital infrastructure put in place that might be valuable for projects that are procured traditionally. One can take the benefit of some of the design element because often a decision can be made around investment in capital that would save on running costs. If there are such lessons to be learned, one wants to pick up on them very quickly and incorporate them into traditional or conventional direct procurement. Over the longer period, one can get a view in this respect. Specifically, as in the case of the point we made about road projects, the assumption around demand for the project did not materialise. There may be lessons one wants to learn from that about how one would design the next project. One can only do that if one has a look-back review.
Deputy Paschal Donohoe: I will leave it at that. I was not aware of the point Mr. McCarthy just made. The core point I have been trying to tease out is that I have no doubt the value-for-money work takes place at the capital part of a project. I am sure that is the case and that it is rigorous and well done. When the project has been up and running for a number of years at what point does a similar process kick in order that everybody can learn from it? That is something I will follow up on next week.
Deputy John Deasy: I welcome Ms Tallon. I will concentrate for the most part on housing. Can Ms Tallon indicate the current number of individuals on the social housing lists as of 2012 versus those on them for past few years?
Ms Geraldine Tallon: We do an assessment of housing needs on a three-yearly basis. There is movement on the list in intervening times at local authority level. Therefore, the list fluctuates all the time as people move in and out of social housing. Our current figure for those on the housing list in the last latest three-year assessment is 98,000.
Deputy John Deasy: As of when?
Ms Geraldine Tallon: As of 31 March 2011.
Deputy John Deasy: There are no more up to date figures that those.
Ms Geraldine Tallon: We we will be starting our three-year process again next year.
Deputy John Deasy: How is that trending compared to the previous three years?
Ms Geraldine Tallon: There were approximately 56,000 people on the previous housing list. Therefore, it had increased significantly in the period from 2008 to 2011.
Deputy John Deasy: The Department's figure for housing finances or initiatives is €742 million for 2011. Can Ms Tallon give a rough breakdown of that?
Ms Geraldine Tallon: The 2011 housing figures?
Deputy John Deasy: I have a figure of €742 million for the different housing initiatives; €742 million was spent under the Vote on housing initiatives.
Ms Geraldine Tallon: The figure of €754 million is the overall Vote outturn on the housing programme for 2011. Apart from administration, the breakdown of that figure is approximately €319 million for local authority housing, €101 million for voluntary and co-operative housing, approximately €65 million for social inclusion measures, €182 million for housing regeneration and improvements, €62 million for private housing grants, and approximately €8 million for other subsidies and allowances.
Deputy John Deasy: Of that €319 million, can Ms Tallon break that down further, if possible, and by that I mean the amount for new builds versus schemes such as RAS? I am trying to ascertain the percentage of that €319 million, in particular, that was being spent on the different schemes and how that is trending and has been trending for the past three or four years.
Ms Geraldine Tallon: Inevitably it has been trending downwards in recent years as far as capital provision is concerned and trending upwards as far as current provision is concerned.
Deputy John Deasy: Has Ms Tallon any idea of the figures?
Ms Geraldine Tallon: For local authority housing, the capital outturn for 2011 was €189 million and for the rental accommodation scheme, which is current provision, it was roughly €116 million. In 2012, in our estimates for this year, our figure for the rental accommodation scheme is €135 million and our figure for local authority housing is €112 million.
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