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(Speaker Continuing)
[Deputy Robert Dowds:   ] If the NTA finds that something is not being used, does it have a role in suggesting to Irish Rail or a bus company that perhaps the service should be either dropped or delivered by a cheaper method?
Mr. Gerry Murphy: We do have the power to tell them the service should be dropped. There is the matter of having the powers and what one wishes to do with public transport. The fact is that much public transport is actually loss-making.
Deputy Robert Dowds: I understand and accept that it has to be.
Mr. Gerry Murphy: That is right. Then there is the issue of accessibility to public transport in rural areas. We realise that some services are very poorly patronised; however, we are aware that if we withdrew those public transport services, the 50% of people in rural Ireland who do not have a car would be disadvantaged. We also know that 50% of adults over 18 in Dublin do not own a car. It is a socially necessary service that is being provided, in some cases, with a very high subsidy.
Deputy Robert Dowds: As I say, I absolutely accept that. However, sometimes perhaps a minibus might do the job of a train.
Mr. Gerry Murphy: Forgetting the minibus and the train, there is a question of the use of large and small buses. Let us take that point. Because we have taken over the rural transport function which operates on a small bus model in a local area, we want to look at how much that could be extended for serving isolated areas and connecting them to the bigger bus services that we are providing through the Bus Éireann contract. There is no doubt that there are many rail services that could be provided alternatively by bus, but the fact is that there is a rail asset, there is an infrastructure and there is a journey associated with rail that is different from the bus.
On the issue of cutting services and closing lines, we did that on the Rosslare-Waterford route because it was just unsustainable, and we were able to establish replacement bus services, but we are cautious about the issue of lightly used rail lines. They are lightly used and heavily subsidised, but there is also a need for people to travel there. If we can get the companies to trim costs generally and increase their markets in that way, then the more heavily used lines can subsidise the lightly used lines to a greater extent.
Deputy Robert Dowds: I entirely accept that public transport will generally operate at a loss, but what about where it is operating at a gross loss? Mr. Murphy may not have the figures on this, but I would be curious to know, for example, what it costs to run the Limerick-to-Athenry line on a yearly basis and how much money the company takes in from customers. My guess is that probably under 5% of the running costs would come from customers. Would I be correct?
Mr. Gerry Murphy: Deputy Dowds is correct. There is a significant subsidy going into that corridor.
Deputy Robert Dowds: Mr. Murphy is stating the subsidy on that route is approaching 95%.
Mr. Gerry Murphy: We are just finalising our own review of that corridor to see what can be done to better utilise it - for example, whether we can establish better bus links to it and whether we can do something about the timetabling. However, in essence, one is talking about a recently built capital asset that is being under-utilised. Passenger demand has generally gone down in the network. The numbers have not materialised as expected. There are a range of rail services that are heavily subsidised.
What we are also going to do this year is to look generally across the rail network at the strategy for providing services - that is, where should we concentrate the subsidy money - but I still come back to the point that one would be loath to cut public transport services in the State, whether they be bus or rail, because our services are under-provided across the State. We need to increase public transport services. People in rural Ireland feel they are not well served at all by public transport.
Deputy Robert Dowds: I do not want to be misunderstood. For example, I note Deputy O'Donnell made the point that he supports public transport, as do I. It is important that we have a good public transport service. I have no doubt that the Cork-to-Dublin rail line, for example, is also run at a loss, and I would in no sense advocate that it be terminated because it is serving a significant number of people. Where the scale is so great in terms of subsidy, it might be better to put the subsidy into an area where, perhaps, more use would be made of the service. I suppose it is inevitable, given that I am a Dublin Deputy, that I would focus on this, but I am aware that there is significant demand for inter-suburban bus services in Dublin, which would make some people's lives much easier. Such services would probably still run at a loss, but I doubt they would run at a 95% loss. To the extent that NTA has a policy position, I would appreciate if Mr. Murphy could direct it at where it is assisting a greater number of people.
Mr. Gerry Murphy: I understand Deputy Dowds's point.
Deputy Robert Dowds: If the NTA came back to see us in a year's time, would Mr. Murphy be able to show any developments in that regard?
Mr. Gerry Murphy: In a year's time, I expect that we will have completed our western rail corridor review, we will have completed our public transport reviews of all the other regions in the State - the rural areas outside the regions' city pockets - and we will have completed a review of local services in Dublin. Then we will have the scale of what we would like to provide and the scale of what we can provide, and we will ask what changes we can make. I definitely feel that a block of work will be done that could help me to better answer Deputy Dowds's question in a year's time.
What we have done - we have only been in existence for three years - is to work closely with Dublin Bus on the reconfiguration of Dublin Bus services. We have substantially reconfigured city services in the four cities. We have now taken over the rural transport function and we are looking at how we can utilise services better across the State to fill the gaps. There has been a lot of work done but I acknowledge there is other work to be done.
Deputy Robert Dowds: On capital investment projects, obviously, as the authority has been existence for only three years, it will not have been involved at the earlier stages of some of the light rail infrastructure planned for Dublin, most of which has been shelved because of the current economic situation. It strikes me that a great deal of money will have been wasted in those areas. Perhaps some of it is not wasted in the sense that these projects may come into play in the future. For example, to what extent does the NTA have a role in deciding which Luas-type project is prioritised in the greater Dublin area? It strikes me that certain projects are much more important than others - for example, the interconnector from Heuston Station to the DART line.
Mr. Gerry Murphy: I suppose the primary decision in all this is ultimately for the Government, but if there were one authority that was the primary adviser and recommender, it would be ours. We are supposed to strategise, analyse and assess the relative merits of the infrastructure and recommend the projects we think should progress. In that regard, there is a five-year capital programme to 2016. We know the perimeters of that. That will deliver only the Luas BXD. The key issue after the period of the capital programme - there is work ongoing at present - is where the next tranche of investment should be in the region and in the State. We are advising the Department on that. The way we do that is by carrying out an analysis of the needs, an assessment of the costs and then a cost-benefit analysis.
Deputy Robert Dowds: How much has been spent so far, for instance, on the interconnector project between Heuston Station and the DART? There is nothing on the ground yet.
Mr. Gerry Murphy: Substantial amounts of money have been spent on both the interconnector and the metro north projects. In the case of the metro north, a statutory railway order had been obtained. It is a complex process. In that case, €162 million was spent before the project was deferred and mothballed. A total of €44 million was spent on the DART underground line.
Deputy Robert Dowds: Would Mr. Murphy repeat that?
Mr. Gerry Murphy: A total of €162 million on the metro north-----
Deputy Robert Dowds: Did he say €44 million was spent on the interconnector?
Mr. Gerry Murphy: -----and €44 million on the interconnector.
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